Thursday, May 15. 2008A Better Way to Discuss the PMWTrackbacks
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Interesting that only those who are in full doctrinal agreement are to be in fellowship, yet those who are in fellowhip are currently in doctrinal debate... Why debate what we agreee on? Anyways a point about the "thetical" by Webber. Thesis 52 through 54 contain no bible passages for support. If I recall correctly that was one of Preus arguments. The PMW says "God commands this", without providing any passages where He does that. This can be seen in Thesis 53: "By divine right” refers to those things which are commanded by God. And then in 54 he uses "by divine right" to show that a limited use of the keys is commanded by God. No bible passages. Your comment rang a bell. Someone (Walther?) wrote about doctrinal fellowship being based not upon full agreement, as in 100% in every detail, but rather upon a fundamental agreement on the central articles, including the nature and normative role of Holy Scripture. I suppose there are those who include the Public Ministry of the Word as one of those central articles. In light of Pietism and similar -isms, it seems to be the case. However, it is not as central as some other articles of faith. Good point about the Bible passages. The general principle should be this, that when we claim God commands something, we should cite it. Otherwise, who would rightly trust what we claim? The thetical format should probably be adjusted to place the existing, PMW citations after each thesis to which they apply. Then it would be clear which ones are supported, and which ones are not. Jesse, You wrote concerning Pr. Webber's new paper: "The new format is 'thetical.' That is, it is stated as relatively short, numbered statements that carry the thought sequentially from start to finish." "relatively short" with 65! Theses? "relatively" is the key word. At least it isn't 95. I am personally very gratified to see some of the language of the Circuit #8 Revision used word for word in this document. For example: Thesis 7 says: "The keys are used privately or unofficially when individual Christians, on behalf of Christ, speak the Gospel of forgiveness to others; when they forgive the sins of those who sin against them; when they retain the sins of those who do not repent, e.g., when they confront in a brotherly way those who need to repent of their sins; and when in "the mutual conversation and consolation of the brethren" they comfort one another with the words of the Gospel" The Circuit #8 Revision states: "The Office of the Keys is the church’s authority to preach the Gospel, administer the Sacraments, and practice church discipline. Individual Christians also speak the Gospel of forgiveness to others, forgive the sins of those who sin against them, confront in a brotherly way those who need to repent of their sins, and in “the mutual conversation and consolation of the brethren” comfort one another with the words of the Gospel. This may be called the private or unofficial use of the keys. (1 Peter 2:9, Matthew 18:15-18, Matthew 6:12 – The 5th Petition of the Lord’s Prayer, SA Part III, Art. IV)." There are several other places in which unity is shown between the Circuit #8 Revision. There are several places where the PMW and the Circuit #8 Revision are expressed where they were in no way contrary to one another. And there are some, perhaps several, places where Biblical and Confessional evidence and citations were lacking. Pr. Webber's paper will receive study among those who wrote and supported the Circuit #8 Revision. It may be a good basis for discussion in one respect. But the basic issue is still that one particular interpretation of the PMW, concerning which these Thesis at some points differ and at other points affirm. On a cursory reading (and I must say that my reading is too quick on this, so I am likely to be misunderstanding): problematic in these Theses is the retention of the notion of divinely instituted ranks in the ministry(this is the so-called "limited use" offices, and the loss of freedom to a congregation to define an office of CDS teacher in the way that fits its needs--that is, the congregation should be free to define a grade-school teacher's office (like shop, art, phy-ed, or temporary worker) in such a way that the congregation may merely hire a teacher without the formality of a call [when the position does not involve the administration of the means of grace]. Yes, that's too long a sentence. Sorry. I hope you and your readers know what is meant. I agree with the first comment on the need for Biblical support for many of the Theses. It is lacking. But I suspect that Pr. Webber was wanting to get a basis for discussion presented before the next convention. If discussion takes place I would be very happy. So far discussion has been stifled from the top down. Thank you, Joe, for your comment. You wrote: "On a cursory reading (and I must say that my reading is too quick on this, so I am likely to be misunderstanding): problematic in these Theses is the retention of the notion of divinely instituted ranks in the ministry(this is the so-called "limited use" offices, and the loss of freedom to a congregation to define an office of CDS teacher in the way that fits its needs--that is, the congregation should be free to define a grade-school teacher's office (like shop, art, phy-ed, or temporary worker) in such a way that the congregation may merely hire a teacher without the formality of a call [when the position does not involve the administration of the means of grace]." I understand and agree with the second criticism. That may be what Thesis 40 attempts to address, but as I mentioned, it is not sufficient. But regarding the first criticism, I either don't understand it or, as you mentioned, you may have missed a subtlety in your quick reading of the theses. Thesis 36 says that the "wider sense" offices beyond the pastoral office are not divinely instituted in themselves, but rather, they are ones "which the church in her freedom may establish." This is further stated in thesis 52, and then thesis 54 puts a fine point on what actually is "by divine right" (commanded by God) in relation to those offices: not the offices themselves, but the work or activity of using the Keys, for which the Church is collectively responsible. It's a fine distinction, and certainly open to further criticism. Yet I don't think it can be fairly said that these theses teach that the "limited-use" offices are divinely-instituted ranks. Yet in this area, the other criticism still applies: there are no scriptural passages cited in support of the thing that thesis 53 claims to exist by divine right, and there should be. I hope "that one particular interpretation of the PMW" is something that can be discussed, too. I hope and anticipate that it might be corrected and strengthened by a discussion of these theses. Again, thanks for your comment. Jesse, Thesis 36 states: "36. The Public Ministry of the Word (i.e. the public or official use of the keys) in the wider sense refers to a presiding office, which is indispensable for the church; and, in addition, to offices having a limited public use of the keys, which the church in her freedom may establish." I don't see the distinction you see. You said: "Thesis 36 says that the "wider sense" offices beyond the pastoral office are not divinely instituted in themselves, but rather, they are ones "which the church in her freedom may establish." Then you refer to Theses 52 and 54 as clarifying this position. Thesis 52: "52. Regarding the Public Ministry of the Word in a wider sense, and regarding the distinction between that which is by divine right and that which is by human right: It is by human right that the church separates to one individual a limited portion of the office (or work) of the Public Ministry of the Word." Thesis 54: "Regarding the Public Ministry of the Word in a wider sense, and regarding the distinction between that which is by divine right and that which is by human right: It is by divine right that one to whom a limited portion of the office (or work) of the Public Ministry of the Word has been separated exercises that work on behalf of the Christians through whom the call has come." But with reference to the dictinction between the "narrower" and the "wider" the theses still fail to make a clear distinction between offices--as positions of responsibility--which are clearly instituted in Scripture or those created by the church in her freedom as instituted by the church--and not specifically instituted in Scripture. I appreciate Pr. Webber's emphasis on the "work", but I think he fails to clearly distinguish the "work" from the "position of responsibility" in these theses with respect to what is actually specified in Scripture. Joe, You wrote, 'But with reference to the distinction between the "narrower" and the "wider" the theses still fail to make a clear distinction between offices--as positions of responsibility--which are clearly instituted in Scripture or those created by the church in her freedom as instituted by the church--and not specifically instituted in Scripture.' I wonder if the problem is one of terminology. Theses 22, 23, and 24 serve to define the phrase "indispensable for the church," which occurs in theses 20 (in the context of the narrower sense) and thesis 36 (in the content of the wider sense). The reason for the indispensability of the pastoral office -- as a position of responsibility -- is the divine institution or command that establishes it. By contrast, offices that only fit under the wider sense -- as positions of responsibility -- do not share in that indispensability, because they do not have a divine institution or command. Does that partly address the issue, or have I missed it? I also notice that the "work" and the "position of responsibility" can both be designated as an "office." Perhaps you are saying that the particular intent of that word here is not clear each time it's used, and that it is also not clear whether what is said about these things is drawn from Scripture. Perhaps it would be helpful to say that there is only one ministerial "office" -- as in the body of work assigned (or instituted) by God, just as there is only one divinely-commanded (or instituted) "office" -- as in a position of responsibility -- to carry out that body of work. Then it would be easier to distinguish between the divinely-assigned work, the indispensable pastoral office, and the dispensable offices established by the Church to carry out some of the teaching or preaching duties. Thanks again for your comments, Joe. Jesse I'm flattered by the kind things Pastor Jacobsen has said about the usefulness of the "thetical" document I prepared to help in the discussion of the PMW. But as I have read some of the exchanges between him and Pastor Abrahamson, I think it would be important to point out that what I prepared was explicitly and deliberately NOT a REWRITING of the PMW, but simply a RESTATING of the PMW. All of the terminology in my theses is taken directly from the PMW. No formulation or Bible reference is added which cannot be found in the PMW itself. Every formulation and Bible reference that can be found in the PMW can also be found in my theses. Again, the theses are not a REWRITING of the PMW - reflecting my attempt to improve or smooth out the arguments or terminology of the original document. They are simply a RESTATING of the actual content of the PMW - warts and all. The theses' usefulness may lie in the fact that they do tease apart some statements of the PMW that are sort of jumbled together in the original. Also, the thetical format may help people to make better sense of the teaching of the PMW, since it is less complicated than the multi-layer outline structure of the original PMW. One additional observation that I will make in regard to the above dialogue, is that in the PMW (both in the original format and in the thetical format), the term "is" is not necessarily synonymous with the phrase "refers to." "Refers to" is a more indirect way of connecting two ideas, while "is" shows an exact correspondence between two ideas. It is highly significant, therefore, that the PMW says that the public use of the keys IS the public ministry of the Word. It is not as significant - or perhaps we should say that it is significant in a different way - when the PMW says that the public ministry of the Word in its two senses REFERS TO the offices (positions of responsibility) that are entrusted with the carrying out of the public ministry of the Word (either to the "full" extent or to a "limited" extent). Likewise, when the PWM says that the different definitions of the phrase "pastoral office" REFER TO the men who serve in the pastoral office. |
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